DPRG mailing list archives: [DPRG] On contests

Wed Jun 6 00:34:30 CDT 2007

Pete,

Salute the attitude, hope it catches!  It really is about getting people to
build robots, support those who are and everything we can do to promote
that.

Notice how many times my line following robot did not compete or even appear
at the SRS competitions because the rules did not allow it to due to being
"too tall" such that a downward looking camera would have an unfair
advantage.  Even with the voluntary unplugging of the camera on my part it
was still too tall and after being denied entry it never returned...  You
may or may not remember the SRS list conversation that ensued related to
encouraging different solutions that used different technology to solve the
problem, but cameras and vision processing were deemed an unfair advantage
over people using photo sensors and leds...   No options for running without
score, an open class, or other, just a simple no.  Combined with the flat
height disqualification, using vision or no, those two particular actions
were (in my opinion) a very sad day for the SRS.

That said, I am glad to see the new attitude reflected here and I hope it is
contagious over to other contest operators!  I believe in supporting actions
that encourage amateur robotics in all forms as you have voiced and will be
happy to see the day when / if these words turn to implementation.

Until then keep trying to spread the philosophy, I think you have a winner
there.

-Kenneth

-----Original Message-----
From: dprglist-bounces at dprg.org [mailto:dprglist-bounces at dprg.org]On
Behalf Of Pete Miles
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 11:24 PM
To: dprglist at dprg.org
Subject: Re: [DPRG] On contests

I wouldn't say I am a master at mini-sumo.  I am a big promoter of all sumo
contests.  My
favorite is the 3 kg weight class.  I like to get people thinking outside
the box in mini
sumo by building walking mini sumo robots.  Of all, humanoid robots are my
favorite.  But
Like David, I need something that can go anywhere, so I am now in the
process of making a
balancing robot.

When it comes to rules, I spend a lot of time arguing the fine points of
robot
specifications.  Some people want to make the rules so narrow, there is only
one type of
robot that can compete.  I argue to use more generic rules so that people
with different
types of robots can compete in the same contest.  So that 6 wheeled robots
can compete
with 6 legged robots, or 2 wheeled robots and 2 legged ones.  I am even for
one legged
hopping robots to be allowed to compete.  A lot of contest rules can be
reworded that
doesn't change the intent of the contest, but allows different class robots
to compete.
Some classes are better suited than other classes at winning, but that
doesn't mean they
shouldn't be allowed to play.

There are so many different types of robots out there that just don't fit in
well with
existing contests.  Many of which never will.  I want these builders to be
encouraged to
continue their development efforts.

When clubs become so focused on small set of contests, it begins to start
discouraging the
other robots.  Not that this is done on purpose.  It just naturally happens
when most of
the discussions and efforts are focused on the contests.

For some people, an organized contest is needed for them to get motivated,
and dedicated
to meet a specific goal.  Without a contest, they just occupy a chair at the
meetings.

Other people motivated by the challenge of doing something, and don't care
about the
contests.  But enjoy watching then, and showing off their creations to other
people.

I know it is difficult to set up an event that will work well with all
robots.  But rules
can be modified that will allow more interesting robots to compete in them.
And one thing
for sure, the interesting robots are usually the biggest crowd pleasers.
Watch the crowd
when my 6 legged mini sumo competes.  I looses, but gets the most cheers.

Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "dpa" <dpa at io.isem.smu.edu>
To: <dprglist at dprg.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:34 PM
Subject: [DPRG] On contests

> Howdy
>
> I have to second Tom's comments below, and by coincidence of the
> Great Strange Attractor, Tom was the judge at the 2001 SRS Robothon
> that awarded me the nice wooden and brass plaque hanging on my shop
> wall that I mentioned in a previous post.
>
> Well, maybe not so surprising, as hobby robotics (actually Tom is
> a professional!) is a small world, after all.
>
> I would like to comment on just one of Pete's observations, but
> they all need contemplating, and Pete speaks with considerable
> authority and experience (and patience and long-suffering) on
> the subject.  Pete writes:
>
>> On one side a once a year contest is more manageable by the volunteers
>> On the otherside, you only get to run your robot once a year.
>
> and this goes directly to my original inquiry.  I run my robots a lot,
> and especially the outdoor robot, jBot, gets a lot of runtime around
> SMU, around my neighborhood, and around my folks cabin in the Colorado
> Rockies.  Same thing with the two-wheel balancing robot.
>
> I enjoy it.  I "play" with my robots.  A lot.  It's why I build them.
>
> Compared to the time I spend playing with my robots, the contests, whether
> once a year or every month, are not really very significant.  I think
> of the contests as an opportunity to show others what I've done.  But I
> don't build robots for the contests, or only run the robots at contest
> time.
>
> Now Pete's experience is quite different (correct me if I'm wrong here,
> Pete).  He is a master at minisumo.  That is a type of robotics that
> really requires a contest and other contestants.  So for minisumo
> builders, the more contests the better, as long as you don't burn out
> the volunteers.  I imagine I'd go crazy waiting to test myself and
> my robots just once a year.  I can see the problem with that.
>
> There are lots of different types of robotics, and I'm sure lots we've
> never dreamed of.  When I first showed up at the SRS Robothon with the
> nBot two wheel balancing robot, there were no contests designed for it.
>
> So I entered it in the generic "floor exercises" which is (was?) largely
> a show-and-tell style event, which was fine with me.  The point being,
> I would never have developed that robot if the goal was defined by some
> particular contest.  A couple of years later I was invited back to
> participate on a panel of balancing robots; I think there were five
> or six by then.  And so the hobby advances.
>
> Like with Chris' vision-based navigation experiments, part of the
> excitement is in doing something new and that, by definition, is
> probably not going to fit within the framework of an existing contest.
>
> Dr. Huff and his students were working on GPS robo-navigation long before
> the DPRG put together the Long Haul competition.  But I know others who,
> as Kip correctly observes, only work on robots the week before (perhaps
> the DAY before) the contest.  So, for those folks, no contests means
> no robots.
>
> So I guess the question becomes, for whom are the contests designed?
> I suppose there is some happy medium.  From where I sit, we have too
> many contests for the pool of manpower available and willing.
>
> best regards,
> dpa
>
>
>> Pete,
>> Your comments were so well 'put.'  If anybody understands the many
>> hours that it takes to run a contest, or series of contests, it is you.
You
>> have spent more time organizing the SRS Robothons than anyone else I
know.
>> Keep up with your 'random thoughts.'  People ned to be aware of the whole
>> sphere of experimental robotics.
>     > Tom Carroll
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [DPRG] On contests
>>
>>
>> Contests are a double edge sword
>>
>> On one side they provide a specific objective for the builder to avhieve.
>> One the otherside, the different contests out there represent a tiny
>> portion of all the different types of robotics
>> which can divert people away from these areas.
>>
>> On side robots can be extremely expensive, but very cool.
>> On the other side, robots can be very inexpensive, but less functional.
>>
>> On one side having public contests catches the attention of new people to
>> see that science and engineering can be a lot
>> of fun.
>> On the other side public contests are observed by people that are
negative
>> and don't care about robots.
>>
>> On one side private club contests are filled with like minded people that
>> are really interested in robots.
>> On the other side, this is exclusionary to a select few.
>>
>> On one side, awards recognize people for their achievements
>> On the otherside, awards require some form of a revenue source.
>>
>> On the one side, robotics is hard.
>> On the other side, robots teach you more about reality than college will
>> ever teach.
>>
>> On the one side, multiple contests in a year allows people more
>> opportunities to run their robots.
>> On the otherside, it burns out the people running the multiple events.
>>
>> On one side a once a year contest is more manageable by the volunteers
>> On the otherside, you only get to run your robot once a year.
>>
>> And on, and on, and on....
>>
>> One thing for sure, reguardless of what happens, who shows up, how many
>> robots are there, there are people that are just
>> not happy about what goes on and wish things were different.
>>
>> The way I look at it, if you got a group of people willing to put in the
>> hours to put on a contest, let them.  Who wants
>> to compete, let them.  Choose the contests based on what people are
>> willing to participate in.  If you have a contest
>> idea where only 2 people are interested in, and people willing to do the
>> work in hosting it, let them.  It will either
>> grow, remain the same, or go away when the people running the contest
gets
>> tired of it.
>>
>> Complaints does one thing, causes the people that run the events to
become
>> less motivated.  And if no one steps in after
>> they quit, then there are no more contests.  Then people will complain
>> that there are no contests, until someone steps
>> up to do the work, and the cycle repeats.
>>
>> There are many reasons people don't show up for a contest.  Do you
>> remember the reason why you didn't show up the last
>> event you weren't at.  We all have reasons why we don't do things, and
why
>> we do things.
>>
>> Just some random thoughs,
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