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[DPRG] Can Can
Subject: [DPRG] Can Can
From: Bruce K. Harlan
bkharlan at bkharlan.com
Date: Tue Dec 5 23:22:32 CST 2006
At one RoboRama, I watched a can-can robot seek, identify and return
cans very well. In addition, when it brought the cans home, it placed
them adjacent to each other. Very elegant. I don't remember what human
was associated with the bot, but it was an impressive performance.
Sincerely,
Bruce K. Harlan
972-897-6709
bkharlan at bkharlan.com
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: DPRGlist Digest, Vol 31, Issue 6
> From: dprglist-request at dprg.org
> Date: Tue, December 05, 2006 9:38 pm
> To: dprglist at dprg.org
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. RBNO Menu - Tue Dec 5 (DeltaGraph at aol.com)
> 2. Are representations what makes Can Can hard? (Randy M. Dumse)
> 3. Re: RBNO Menu - Tue Dec 5 (R. Steven Rainwater)
> 4. Re: Are representations what makes Can Can hard? (Eric Sumner)
> 5. RE: Are representations what makes Can Can hard? (Sheila Doyle)
> 6. RE: Are representations what makes Can Can hard? (Sheila Doyle)
> 7. Re: Roborama 06b (tester140 at juno.com)
> 8. Re: RBNO Menu - Tue Dec 5 (tester140 at juno.com)
> 9. RE: Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> (tester140 at juno.com)
> 10. Meeting Dec 9th. (-Old Dog-)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:57:56 EST
> From: DeltaGraph at aol.com
> Subject: [DPRG] RBNO Menu - Tue Dec 5
> To: dprglist at dprg.org
> Message-ID: <c65.6e6cf1c.32a72944 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I just bought fixings for spaghetti with meat sauce also salad, and garlic
> bread.
> Might need a little extra Italian dressing - if someone has some.
>
> I will charge for parts, but not labor -- so bring a buck or two.
>
> Will leave drinks up to others.
> I assume we have some plates...
>
>
> - Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:45:12 -0600
> From: "Randy M. Dumse" <rmd at newmicros.com>
> Subject: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> To: "Dprglist at Dprg.Org" <dprglist at dprg.org>
> Message-ID: <009a01c718ae$430dea30$0200a8c0 at RMDSONY3>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi all, We (New Micros, Inc.) offered 5 prizes for the Roborama.
> Four were given out (we're still waiting for a couple to be
> delivered/pickedup.) The prize that was not claimed was for the
> Can Can contest, as I understand it.
>
> Why is Can Can so hard? Is it fundamentally a different kind of
> contests from the others. Does it take a set of skills so beyond
> only the legendary dpa can master them? Is it because the robot
> has to deal with more than itself and the course? Is it so few
> of us run our robots with odometry (or is that even true)? Is
> the representation of the can and its location what makes it so
> hard?
>
> Seems like a worthwhile discussion to me if anyone cares to join
> in. Thoughts?
>
> Randy
> www.newmicros.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:45:20 -0600
> From: "R. Steven Rainwater" <srainwater at ncc.com>
> Subject: Re: [DPRG] RBNO Menu - Tue Dec 5
> To: DPRG <dprglist at dprg.org>
> Message-ID: <1165351519.19939.127.camel at rodan.ncc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 13:57, DeltaGraph at aol.com wrote:
> > Will leave drinks up to others.
>
> I'll bring some cookies (suprise!)
>
> > I assume we have some plates...
>
> I picked up a pile of plates at Sam's a few weeks ago. I think there are
> still plenty left.
>
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:56:11 -0600
> From: "Eric Sumner" <kd5bjo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> To: rmd at newmicros.com
> Cc: "Dprglist at Dprg.Org" <dprglist at dprg.org>
> Message-ID:
> <eaaf21dc0612051556r7e0a0041i27d78da0f2a37ec2 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/5/06, Randy M. Dumse <rmd at newmicros.com> wrote:
> > Why is Can Can so hard? Is it fundamentally a different kind of
> > contests from the others?
>
> Warning: some of the following arguments apply only to the "full-size"
> Can-Can rules and are not applicable to the new "travel-size" version.
>
> In the other contests, a robot is required to consider either the
> floor color or the "occupiedness" of space and then act on that
> information is interesting ways. Can-Can's primary decision point
> hinges on the presence or absence of a can, and requires robots to do
> interesting things with that information. On their surface, these
> seem to be very similar.
>
> What makes Can-Can so difficult is that it moves beyond the realm of
> sensing and into semantics. There is not, and will probably never be,
> a "can sensor" that will produce a signal when a soda can is present.
> Instead, a robot must deduce, infer, or guess whether the sensor
> readings represent a can, which should be retrieved, or an obstacle,
> which should be avoided.
>
> Obstacles (walls) and cans all look very similar to the sensors that a
> robot has. In our contest, they are both:
> - white,
> - vertical, and
> - approximately the same height
>
> The only practical things that our robots can use to determine whether
> something is a wall or a can (that I can identify) are:
> - curvature (watch out for inside corners),
> - position,
> - size (really the same thing as curvature),
> - navigability (Can the robot travel all the way around it
> (really the same thing as position)), and
> - mass.
>
> These are all properties of extended objects, so it is unlikely that
> we will have sensors to measure these things directly. Thus, any
> robot that wishes to distinguish a can from a wall needs to have some
> fairly complex method to do so. David managed to find a resonable way
> to do this with SR04; it uses a pair of distance sensors to determine
> the size (or is it the curvature?) of an object, and tries to grab
> anything that looks like a can. If the object then doesn't behave
> like a can (doesn't allow the gripper to close), SR04 decides that it
> isn't a can after all.
>
> Also, if you don't know where a can is, you have to do some kind of
> search pattern to find one. In your search pattern, you need to be
> careful to exclude any cans you've already found, which look even more
> like target cans than walls do.
>
> Compare that to the simplest known way to do quick trip: Go forward
> until you hit something, and then go backward until you hit something.
>
> In conclusion, Can-Can fundamentally requires a MUCH more
> sophisticated behavior than any of the other contests, especially if
> you don't want to put Can-Can-specific sensors on your robot.
>
> -- Eric Sumner
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:36:27 -0600
> From: "Sheila Doyle" <srdoyle at earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> To: "dprglist" <dprglist at dprg.org>
> Message-ID: <380-22006123603627826 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Eric is correct that programing for Can-Can is different because it
> requires you to enter the land of much more complicated programing.
> And the robot has to leave the known location on the wall. Just like in
> old sailing days, you stayed on the coast line.
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Randy M. Dumse <rmd at newmicros.com>
> > To: Dprglist at Dprg.Org <dprglist at dprg.org>
> > Date: 12/5/2006 2:45:13 PM
> > Subject: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> >
> > Hi all, We (New Micros, Inc.) offered 5 prizes for the Roborama.
> > Four were given out (we're still waiting for a couple to be
> > delivered/pickedup.) The prize that was not claimed was for the
> > Can Can contest, as I understand it.
> >
> > Why is Can Can so hard? Is it fundamentally a different kind of
> > contests from the others. Does it take a set of skills so beyond
> > only the legendary dpa can master them? Is it because the robot
> > has to deal with more than itself and the course? Is it so few
> > of us run our robots with odometry (or is that even true)? Is
> > the representation of the can and its location what makes it so
> > hard?
> >
> > Seems like a worthwhile discussion to me if anyone cares to join
> > in. Thoughts?
> >
> > Randy
> > www.newmicros.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DPRGlist mailing list
> > DPRGlist at dprg.org
> > http://list.dprg.org/mailman/listinfo/dprglist
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:39:49 -0600
> From: "Sheila Doyle" <srdoyle at earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> To: "dprglist" <dprglist at dprg.org>
> Message-ID: <380-2200612360394955 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Oh. And I plan to enter Can-Can again.
> Some day.
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Randy M. Dumse <rmd at newmicros.com>
> > To: Dprglist at Dprg.Org <dprglist at dprg.org>
> > Date: 12/5/2006 2:45:13 PM
> > Subject: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> >
> > Hi all, We (New Micros, Inc.) offered 5 prizes for the Roborama.
> > Four were given out (we're still waiting for a couple to be
> > delivered/pickedup.) The prize that was not claimed was for the
> > Can Can contest, as I understand it.
> >
> > Why is Can Can so hard? Is it fundamentally a different kind of
> > contests from the others. Does it take a set of skills so beyond
> > only the legendary dpa can master them? Is it because the robot
> > has to deal with more than itself and the course? Is it so few
> > of us run our robots with odometry (or is that even true)? Is
> > the representation of the can and its location what makes it so
> > hard?
> >
> > Seems like a worthwhile discussion to me if anyone cares to join
> > in. Thoughts?
> >
> > Randy
> > www.newmicros.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DPRGlist mailing list
> > DPRGlist at dprg.org
> > http://list.dprg.org/mailman/listinfo/dprglist
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:39:05 GMT
> From: "tester140 at juno.com" <tester140 at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [DPRG] Roborama 06b
> To: DeltaGraph at aol.com
> Cc: dprglist at dprg.org
> Message-ID: <20061205.163953.713.1306068 at webmail13.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I second that motion Ron. The other Dave is a good choice!
> Charlie Youngblood
> Robo-Rama 2006B Coordinator
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:41:20 GMT
> From: "tester140 at juno.com" <tester140 at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [DPRG] RBNO Menu - Tue Dec 5
> To: srainwater at ncc.com
> Cc: dprglist at dprg.org
> Message-ID: <20061205.164156.713.1306084 at webmail13.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I'll Bring some drinks.
> Charlie Y.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:57:24 GMT
> From: "tester140 at juno.com" <tester140 at juno.com>
> Subject: RE: [DPRG] Are representations what makes Can Can hard?
> To: srdoyle at earthlink.net
> Cc: dprglist at dprg.org
> Message-ID: <20061205.165726.713.1306220 at webmail13.nyc.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Can-Can is different, but can be achieved by a very simple "sweeping" method that I have seen
> used over the years by several different contestants. My robot could do this if I could get it to
> follow the wall with out such wild occilations. It tends to tear itself apart as it slams into the
> wall.
> Charlie Y.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
> Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:37:27 -0800 (PST)
> From: -Old Dog- <puppy_dog500 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [DPRG] Meeting Dec 9th.
> To: dprglist at dprg.org
> Message-ID: <487845.50904.qm at web35601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hi All:
>
> I have two questions about our meeting this Saturday.
>
> 1) Where will it be? I've heard the Science Place will
> not be available for us that day. Will we meet at the
> warehouse?
>
> 2) What topics will be discussed at the meeting?
>
> See you then.
>
> -Martin
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
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> End of DPRGlist Digest, Vol 31, Issue 6
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